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Sale Hotel to be saved

10:51am Friday 7th August 2009 in News

Sale Hotel Sale Hotel

THE MP for Sale East has hailed the news that the Sale Hotel is to be saved, as a victory for local people.

Earlier this week Paul Goggins submitted a 1,500 name petition to the Secretary of State at the Department for Culture Media and Sport (DCMS), urging him to overturn an earlier decision not to list the landmark building.

Speaking after urgent discussions yesterday afternoon with DCMS Minister Gerry Sutcliffe, Mr Goggins said the minister had confirmed that in view of compelling new evidence about the architectural and historical importance of the building, English Heritage were minded now to list the Sale Hotel.

Trafford Council have issued a Building Preservation Notice to prevent the demolition of the building until the formal decision to list is taken by English Heritage.

The move came after demolition barriers were erected outside the building on Wednesday.

Mr Goggins said: “I am delighted that in view of the compelling new evidence about the architectural and historical importance of the building English Heritage are now minded to list the Sale Hotel.

"This is a real victory for local people.”

Cllr Barry Brotherton added: "I am very pleased with the outcome which is a result of the sustained efforts of local residents, Paul Goggins MP, and local Labour and Conservative councillors working together.

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“This episode has highlighted the need for the council to be more proactive in protecting buildings of historic interest that may be under threat.”

Comments(26)

Cedric Lord says...
2:46pm Fri 7 Aug 09

Very well done and congratulations to all who have worked tirelessly to get this far, with so many good ideas and positive suggestions coming forward from so many members of our community we indeed have firm foundations to proceed.

There is no need or excuse for this building to stand empty or become neglected, in the mean time the present owners should be encouraged to have a gardener once a fortnight to keep the grounds in order.

Well done one and all

Cedric Lord
Life long Sale Resident

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Steak says...
12:36pm Sat 8 Aug 09

I dont see anything nice about the building at all. So who now will have to fund the upkeep of this building and what can it be used for or will it just be left to go to ruin until it has a fire which seems to be the norm these days.

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Big G says...
8:17pm Sat 8 Aug 09

I totally agree "Steak". Get the 1,500 people who signed the petition to stump up for this eyesore. Maybe if they used the pub when it was open it wouldn`t have closed!
"Architectural and historical importance", I don`t think so, who makes this drivel up?

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MattSleight says...
9:56am Thu 13 Aug 09

It's a sad day when 1500 bullies can force unnecessary cost onto a private landowner, despite failing to be able to use the democratic process effectively. How would they like it if they were told not only that they could not demolish their garden shed, but that they could not make any further modifications to it, and must employ a gardener to keep it tidy?

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Cedric Lord says...
12:35pm Thu 13 Aug 09

They can always do it themselves - but it must not become neglected or an overgrown mess. Many of us Sale residents employ very good gardeners and could easily recommend someone.

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Sandy45 says...
5:01pm Thu 13 Aug 09

What is this compelling and important new evidence? Where can Sale residents access it to make an informed decision about the campaign? Whilst I don't doubt the campaigners' conviction of the 'need' to list the Hotel, I do wonder what it is they are ultimately trying to achieve. The Hotel is a relic of a late Victorian pleasure garden built for commercial gain which fell into disuse many years ago. The main site was used to build housing for the growing suburban population. The current building may be a local landmark for direction purposes, but that's about it. It isn't particularly attractive, modifications have been made so it isn't in its original state and the remains aren't even linked to any noteworthy historical figure or event. Lately it's become a just another hanging out space for the disaffected. There's been at least one vehicle set alight on its abandoned car park. Residents already have to contend with the disturbances on Sale Grammar School premises out of school hours- impromptu drunken 'raves', fire setting and invasions of our gardens- why provide another venue for this antisocial behaviour? Have the campaigners considered what will happen if the owner can't develop the site? Perhaps they should focus on the realities of the economic situation and not on preserving a white elephant. Time moves on and while we don't always agree with a development (I loathe the Beetham Tower, aka The Manc Moon Bar) it doesn't mean that it's necessarily wrong in the bigger scheme of things. Let the owner get on with it subject to the usual planning laws.
PS where do I sign up to the "Get Real, Guys! (Sale Hotel Campaign)" Seriously where do the rest of us petition?

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Sandy45 says...
5:23pm Thu 13 Aug 09

FYI new petitions to our Sainted Leader are unavailable until after the summer recess meaning an "Against" can't petition anyway. Democracy, much?

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Sandy45 says...
5:54pm Thu 13 Aug 09

Looking at the separate threads following the various articles on this topic it's clear that the majority are in favour of clearing the site....Pity that the comments are so scattered and the Messenger is only reporting the emotional nostalgia being generated by a relatively small group. How about a balanced report on the problems for locals if this site is left derelict- like some of the others mentioned- and do the residents of Sylvan Avenue and others know that English Heritage/ The Victorian Society are eyeing up their roads as part of some Heritage Park centred on the Hotel? Oh and hands off Walkden Gardens too ! See their websites. Me, controversial- surely not. Just telling what I read...

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NH001 says...
6:06pm Thu 13 Aug 09

I’m starting to think there should have been a petition to knock the building down. I too fear the building will now fall into a derelict site. It no longer can continue as a pub (the last two landlords were very poor!) and no developer is going to make it work financially by turning into flats etc. I would not be surprised over time it turns into a complete eye sore.

I wonder if any lessons could have been learnt from the large house near the end of Broad Road? A developer purchased to turn into flats, that permission was refused and for possibly the last 5 years or so the condition has deteriorated. The same will happen with The Sale Hotel for sure.

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Sandy45 says...
6:29pm Thu 13 Aug 09

Perhaps the anti preservationists could start contacting the Council and our MPs? Then again, they've already pledged support......

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Cedric Lord says...
10:36am Fri 14 Aug 09

The aforementioned 1920s property located on Broad Road is not a listed building and consequently the owner does not have a duty of care to maintain the building unlike the Sale Hotel. In addition, the owner of the Broad Road property does not have the support and enthusiasm of our community to find a way forward again unlike the Sale Hotel. A conservation area to include Arran and Sylvan Avenues etc. the Sale Hotel and Holly Bank is an excellent suggestion and I do hope it is achieved. Brogden Terrace and Church Lane are splendid examples of a Conservation Area and realistically the only way we are going to preserve some of our local heritage, left to some outsiders we would have absolutely nothing left.

Cedric Lord
Lifelong Sale Resident

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Sandy45 says...
11:34am Fri 14 Aug 09

Cedric, can I just ask, do you live on any of the roads you've mentioned? If you don't why should you impose your wishes on those that do, and even if you do, do your neighbours actually support you?

Do they know that you want to mothball the area and prevent them enjoying or using their homes as they wish?

What is there to conserve? For example, a large modern house and flats (despite local objections) have been put on Holly Bank in the last few years. That was originally a private gated "garden estate" but has no particular claim to fame. Hence, no protection.

The houses on the roads you mentioned are well kept and operate fine as family houses and apartments. Why interfere?

What is the real cost of being "put" in a conservation area?

I find your comment on outsiders ill thought out and misplaced. If "outsiders" hadn't come into the area the wretched Sale Hotel would never have been built. The pre 1870 population was tiny and would never have sustained such a venture.

What would you do with the Hotel if it was yours? Launch a campaign to buy it and see how much you raise. I saw it advertised for under £200k on a business website before it was sold. You have 1500 signatures on a petition - that's less than £150 each.



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Rebecca E says...
10:45pm Fri 14 Aug 09

In addition to the paper petition that attracted the support of over 1500 local people within a week, the poll cast by the Sale and Altrincham Messenger (see above) indicated that 88% are glad that the building is to be saved. These show there's a lot of support for the exterior to be preserved. With such a large building and plot, there are many different ways in which the building could be put to use -a community centre, a sixth form for Sale Grammar that is near to the main centre, a hotel, an approved wedding premises, flats -to name just a few options.

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Markus1 says...
3:12am Sat 15 Aug 09

I think the support of over 1500 locals shows that the decision was right to issue a BPN! Of course Sandy45 and NH001 can start there own petition and knock on the door of the locals and ask for there opinion! But I assume that will never happens... if they are locals at all, otherwise they would know what most of the people are thinking.
Personal, I'm glad that the Sale Hotel has been saved!

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Vixen73 says...
3:43am Sat 15 Aug 09

I completely agree with the previous comments supporting the preservation. This campaign is clearly trying to save a piece of Sale's history, which is rapidly disappearing at the expense of future generations. This isn't about saving a "pub"...it's about saving a piece of history for future generations. I am all in favour for this building being redeveloped into something that can be used by and studied by future generations. It is clear that all involved in trying to protect this building have gone above and beyond and have worked tirelessly on behalf of the community who wish to preserve this iconic, landmark building - those who choose to dismiss it or mock the hard work...i have yet to see anything opposing the BPN apart from a few idle comments...

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Lee Kendall says...
11:07am Sat 15 Aug 09

Invariably in life, people with negative things to say will feel more motivated to do so than others (ahem Sandy45....).

However, in this case, the positively minded people of Sale have won through and I congratulate everyone involved in managing to convince Paul Gogggins, Trafford MBC and EH to save the hotel. I think politicians and Councils often do wrong and get rightly slammed for it, but special mention and credit should go to Trafford and Paul Goggins who I know have made special effort in this case, without having to.

It is entirely right that the hotel has been saved. Whether you admire it aesthetically or not (and I do), it is certainly impressive and unusual, with the tower self evidently being the most curious feature. Although it may have been altered internally, it is the shell and massing of the building that defines it, and I hope that Seddons will get creative with its re-use and redevelopment so that it can become used again.

The conservation movement, building preservation laws and listing process were designed EXACTLY for the reason that they have been used here; that is to save the heritage of an area so that future generations can benefit from it. Unfortunately, the quality of modern buildings is far removed from the quality of old (look around Manchester), and so their protection is vital. It is easy to be cynical and say "out with the old, in with the new", but if that attitude was adopted uniformally, Sale would very quickly turn from Sale into Saleford.

Once again, well done to everyone involved for saving the hotel.

Once again, we

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Olivia D says...
12:05pm Sat 15 Aug 09

Some comments on here seem to have the view that if the 1500 people who signed the petition had supported the pub by drinking in there then this wouldn't have needed to be done. Saving the 'Sale Hotel' was not at all about saving the pub, it has always been said that the days of the Sale Hotel being a public house have long gone. The petition was created because it was about saving a BUILDING that was precious to the people surrounding it. And its not even about it being a beautiful building, its about the fact that we should as a community be able to preserve our history from being knocked down and not get some ugly box shaped over-expensive flats in its place. Yes to whoever said it was a landmark, but thats not what it could only be. If the current owners could think outside the box of it only being space to build flats it would make a lovely boutique hotel, somewhere that could cater for wedding parties as Walkden Gardens opposite is used frequently for wedding photos. It could be used for education purposes, i.e. Sale Grammar has been mentioned, some people would like it to be turned into a local history museum. I am over the moon that 1500 people signed the paper petition and there are plenty more people expressing positive replies about it being saved for example the over 1700 people on the facebook group 'Save the Sale Hotel'.
Sandy - it has been mentioned that the Edwardian Houses that surround the Sale Hotel could be part of a conservation area but it is quite unlikely as the houses all differ slightly in character. Do you actually live in the area?? Because the majority of the people that live surrounding the Sale Hotel signed the petition! And look again 88% on this website are glad its been saved. Well done to everyone that had a part to play in this campaign which includes all the people that have signed the petition, the many people that are on the facebook group and the online petition which is still available to sign.

http://petitions.num
ber10.gov.uk/Savethe
SaleHotel/

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Sandy45 says...
12:32pm Sat 15 Aug 09

Yes, I do live in the area (within 200yards of the Hotel) and I have a professional interest. I am not being negative for the sake of it. I have studied the statutory criteria but remain at a loss (until I actually see the evidence being put) to understand the importance of this building. perhaps some of the supporters can advise me on how /where to access the information? You might even convert me...

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Big G says...
8:11pm Sat 15 Aug 09

The supporters of the Hotel will not be able to supply you with any evidence (Sandy45) of the importance of this building, non exists, apart from in there minds.
Also (Lee Kendall) what is positive about saving this ugly eyesore.

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Lee Kendall says...
10:37pm Sun 16 Aug 09

If you are of the opinion that the building is ugly, there is absolutely no point in me trying to convince you otherwise....that is your opinion and you are perfectly entitled to it.


What I would say though, is that ugly or not, the building is striking, is part of the historical heritage of Sale and is obviously well regarded by a lot of people. Buildings like this provide an anchor to the past, of which there are precious few links remaining.


I may not have been born when the Brooklands Hotel was demolished in 1973 but I would love to have seen it, rather than the ugly office block that now stands on that site.


Going even further back, I would have loved to seen the villas that originally lined Brooklands Road, or the Moorlands house that used to sit on the site of Moorlands school, or the pleasure grounds behind the Sale Hotel, amongst many others. My point is, I dont want my children or grandchilren to grow up in an area where there is nothing in common with what I know about it now, or moreover, what my great great grandfather knew and grew up around in the 1800's.


Whilst the preservation of a building may, to some extent, be a criteria led, "box ticking" excercise, the main driver for protecting heritage must surely come from something that can't be measured empirically, something that is in the heart and mind. If you want evidence for why the hotel should be listed, you're exactly right Big G - the evidence is in our minds and I make no apolgies for it. If that doesn't bother you, then do a comparison with some other buidlings that have been protected.


Going back to the argument that local people let this happen for not going to the pub - I cannot understand this logic. People dont go to a pub because they think they may be stopping it from future demolition, they go because it is a good pub. Unfortunately, the Sale Hotel turned into a poor pub and it is now time for a new chapter in its history.


I am just glad that it wont turn into another Brooklands Hotel.


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Sandy45 says...
10:48am Mon 17 Aug 09

As I said before, I've yet to be convinced of the merits of saving the building.

For the record my objections do not lie with the aesthetics of the building or an individual's or group's emotional response to it, but rather with the value of this particular building in terms of its built heritage. I am taking a logical approach to this issue. Show me evidence please, not just a knee-jerk reaction.

If the evidence is not available then how is it proposed that the case will be made for preservation?





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eko says...
12:16pm Mon 17 Aug 09

I'm pleased that the shell of the building will be preserved as it is an unsual building the like of which I feel you would struggle to find elsewhere. Not because once built they realised that it was a hideous building the like of which should never be built again but because it was built for a specific purpose. I think it can be considered to have a historical value, owing to it being built to view the previously mentioned botanical gardens, of which Walton Gardens is a small remnant. These gardens themselves reflected the change brought to Sale by the influx of wealthy victorians so I feel the building represents a change in Sale's social and economic history: going some way of filling the criteria for getting it listed. The decision to list is made following criteria based on argument not hard facts, although the latter can only strengthen the case. For listing it is the importance of the building, culturally and socially, that is important not necessarily the people who lived in it.

As to the preservation of other buildings in the area I know that the owners of the houses on Holly Bank have on more than one occasion tried to get preservation orders on the houses but failed. So I would expect them to support "moth balling" i.e. looking after the houses in the way they always have and making sure that any changes to the exteria are sympathetic to the victorian nature of the buildings. At the moment the beech trees have more protection than the houses!

As to the anti-social elements of having the Sale Hotel stand empty this is a problem that is only made worse by having Walton Gardens just across and the grammar's fields beyond. Both problem spots for anti-social behaviour as they have been for years. Perhaps this is something to raise with the council/police to have extra patrols in the area. We should not base decisions about our local area on fear of anti-social behaviour.

But lets hope the building stands idle for only a short time and a use can be found for it. It is an important part of Sale's history and I do not see what harm preserving it will cause. The owners will have a duty to maintain and look after the building which at present they do not. Alternatively they will go through the usual planning laws; not get permision or get permision but find it is not economical to continue with the development at this time and leave it to rot like the house on Broad Rd.

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Sandy45 says...
2:57pm Tue 18 Aug 09

To my certain knowledge none of the Holly Bank houses have ever been the subject of listings attempts by their respective owners. In fact the local Authority allowed flats to be built on the road in direct contravention of the covenant (dating back to about 1850) which was supposed to prevent such developments.

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Sandy45 says...
3:03pm Tue 18 Aug 09

Further one of the original Holly Bank properties has, relatively recently, been granted planning permission for re-development to include substantial alterations to the road frontage. I have no problem with this. Better that the houses adapt to suit the needs of the owners and occupiers than be left derelict.


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Sandy45 says...
3:19pm Tue 18 Aug 09

Eko, just to clarify if by "Walton Gardens" you're referring to Walkden Gardens, can I just add that the Gardens were never part of or connected to the Victorian Pleasure e gardens. The latter were known as Moorfield Gardens: there was apparently stiff opposition from locals, who successfully opposed successive licensing application by the owner. Far from attracting wealthy clients, the Gardens attracted the lower classes from as far afield as Manchester. Nearly 40 years after the Gardens had closed down, locals were still protesting against the grant of a full liquor licence to the Sale Hotel in 1935!



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Cedric Lord says...
4:14pm Wed 19 Aug 09

In response to Michael Sargent’s point there have in point of fact been three separate owners of Holly Bank properties that have over the years tried both to have properties added to the statutory list and/or conservation area status. Holly Bank was a very special and lovely environment but sadly some of the original Victorian splendour has been lost.

The late Annice Walkden a very dear friend of mine gave Moorside Nursery now Walkden Gardens in memory of her brother Harold known to most of us as Harry Walkden. Part of the reason she so generously donated the land to the Community was because of her great love of Sale and its’ people. Sale as the past few weeks have shown is, under the surface, a rather close-knit community which has retained its identity and local distinctiveness.



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