Impact of HS2 route on Warburton and Hale Barns still uncertain as HS2 boss refuses to be drawn

Impact of HS2 route on Warburton and Hale Barns still uncertain as HS2 boss refuses to be drawn

Impact of HS2 route on Warburton and Hale Barns still uncertain as HS2 boss refuses to be drawn

First published in News Messenger Newspapers: Photograph of the Author by , Reporter

THE boss of HS2 would not speculate on whether the high speed rail line will still cut through Warburton, despite announcing that an interchange will now be built in Crewe.


Speaking at the launch of the latest HS2, which was held at Manchester City Hall on March 17, Sir David Higgins said: “I don’t want to pre-empt anything on that.
 

“It’s really for the Government to consider all those submissions, and I have no doubt they will consider them carefully.”


Under current proposals, the HS2 line splits in Little Bollington, with one spur terminating at Wigan and another stopping at Manchester Airport – the Wigan spur cutting through Warburton en route and the airport spur affecting properties in Hale Barns.


If plans were to stay unchanged, a concrete viaduct will cut through the middle of Warburton, destroying some residents’ land and homes and creating a ‘serious eyesore’, according to Altrincham and Sale West MP, Graham Brady.


Mr Brady is awaiting a response from the Secretary of State as to whether it would be possible to tunnel under Warburton and also whether the route could be moved to the other side of the M56, therefore avoiding Hale Barns.


However, when Mr Brady spoke to Messenger last year he said there was a ‘logical argument’ for an interchange at Crewe, pre-empting Sir David’s announcement.


Mr Brady argued that such an interchange could eradicate the need for the spur to cut through Warburton, but a confirmation of this is not expected for some time.


The MP said: “I have already met with the Secretary of State to call for the removal of the proposed line through Warburton.


“Now in the light of HS2’s revised proposal for a connection to the West Coast Mainline at Crewe, I have tabled a written question urging him to look again at the proposed Golborne spur.


“As far as I can see this greatly strengthens the case for axing it.”


Mr Brady added that while there is strong support for HS2 in Parliament, he will vote against the proposals if the changes he has petitioned for are not made.

 

Comments (8)

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9:57am Sun 30 Mar 14

NorthStart says...

NorthStart's full-scheme alternative for HS2, Plan B, does not got through Cheshire at all, but still has Manchester and Leeds as northern destinations:

http://hsnorthstart.
wordpress....

Critiques welcome
NorthStart's full-scheme alternative for HS2, Plan B, does not got through Cheshire at all, but still has Manchester and Leeds as northern destinations: http://hsnorthstart. wordpress.... Critiques welcome NorthStart
  • Score: 0

3:57pm Sun 30 Mar 14

padav says...

@NorthStart - critiques welcome?

Well for a start your proposal won't allow for Manchester and other provincial cities to directly link to each other - the Warburton link Mr. Brady is fretting about facilitates direct links between Manchester and all points north on the WCML so direct trains from Manchester City Centre and the new Aiport Station to Preston, the Lake District, Lancaster and Glasgow for starters

Mr. Brady is deluding himself and deceiving his constituents - the Crewe hub proposal has no bearing whatsoever on the Warburton link because the line is designed to facilitate a direct link between the HS2 line and the WCML enabling seamless intergration between the new line and existing network. Seems as though Mr. Brady is simply looking after number one here. ie. votes in his own constituency?
@NorthStart - critiques welcome? Well for a start your proposal won't allow for Manchester and other provincial cities to directly link to each other - the Warburton link Mr. Brady is fretting about facilitates direct links between Manchester and all points north on the WCML so direct trains from Manchester City Centre and the new Aiport Station to Preston, the Lake District, Lancaster and Glasgow for starters Mr. Brady is deluding himself and deceiving his constituents - the Crewe hub proposal has no bearing whatsoever on the Warburton link because the line is designed to facilitate a direct link between the HS2 line and the WCML enabling seamless intergration between the new line and existing network. Seems as though Mr. Brady is simply looking after number one here. ie. votes in his own constituency? padav
  • Score: 1

4:56pm Sun 30 Mar 14

NorthStart says...

@Padav: "your proposal won't allow for Manchester and other provincial cities to directly link to each other"

Have another look at the website. Plan B's east-west Pennine Link of 40 miles would be built first, fast-connecting Manchester Victoria to Leeds and halving the rail time between the two city centres. By directly linking the cities on the East Lancs rail network to the cities on the West Yorks rail network, it would at the same time open an east-west Northern Cities Crossrail and join up a northern urban economy half as big again as Birmingham.

The Northern Way initiative called for such a cross-Pennine link in 2011. And the BBC's Mind The Gap investigation, with Evan Davies reporting, saw the need for such a link to join up the sort of agglomeration of urban centres, commuters, technology-based SMEs and skills needed to compete with London's world-city attractions to the south:

http://www.bbc.co.uk
/programmes/b03y3y8k


HS2 and its funny forks beyond Birmingham will not do that. Look at the map. HS2 wasn't thought up that way.
@Padav: "your proposal won't allow for Manchester and other provincial cities to directly link to each other" Have another look at the website. Plan B's east-west Pennine Link of 40 miles would be built first, fast-connecting Manchester Victoria to Leeds and halving the rail time between the two city centres. By directly linking the cities on the East Lancs rail network to the cities on the West Yorks rail network, it would at the same time open an east-west Northern Cities Crossrail and join up a northern urban economy half as big again as Birmingham. The Northern Way initiative called for such a cross-Pennine link in 2011. And the BBC's Mind The Gap investigation, with Evan Davies reporting, saw the need for such a link to join up the sort of agglomeration of urban centres, commuters, technology-based SMEs and skills needed to compete with London's world-city attractions to the south: http://www.bbc.co.uk /programmes/b03y3y8k HS2 and its funny forks beyond Birmingham will not do that. Look at the map. HS2 wasn't thought up that way. NorthStart
  • Score: -3

9:22am Mon 31 Mar 14

Altfish says...

Oh dear, the North Start people have found this site!

Their proposal is a scheme through the Pennines, your journey to London on HS2 starts at Victoria, heads north (yes north) for the first 10-miles, then sets off to Huddersfield and Dewsbury, before finally deciding to head in the correct direction and go through Sheffield on this torturous route. The route from Manchester to Birmingham is the same but even more convoluted.

Evan Davis’ condescending (to northerners) programme is flawed in many ways; remember this is the same Evan Davis who was telling Salford and Trafford what we should call ourselves. Evan was born in Surrey and still lives in the south of England, we should listen to him, why?

I agree Leeds to Manchester needs improving, I use that route regularly and it is too slow and overcrowded. But it doesn’t have to be either/or. Both schemes can be progressed, indeed the Northern Hub and the additional electrification in the North West is already beginning to address much of what you are suggesting. Electrification between both Piccadilly and Victoria to Stalybridge is planned and funded, gantries are already going up. Piccadilly to Wigan is now electrified and the rest of the Piccadilly to Liverpool line will be completed this year; the new trains are starting to arrive. As I said, it is NOT either/or.

HS2’s 'funny forks beyond Birmingham' are nothing compared to North Starts question mark shaped route to Manchester.
Oh dear, the North Start people have found this site! Their proposal is a scheme through the Pennines, your journey to London on HS2 starts at Victoria, heads north (yes north) for the first 10-miles, then sets off to Huddersfield and Dewsbury, before finally deciding to head in the correct direction and go through Sheffield on this torturous route. The route from Manchester to Birmingham is the same but even more convoluted. Evan Davis’ condescending (to northerners) programme is flawed in many ways; remember this is the same Evan Davis who was telling Salford and Trafford what we should call ourselves. Evan was born in Surrey and still lives in the south of England, we should listen to him, why? I agree Leeds to Manchester needs improving, I use that route regularly and it is too slow and overcrowded. But it doesn’t have to be either/or. Both schemes can be progressed, indeed the Northern Hub and the additional electrification in the North West is already beginning to address much of what you are suggesting. Electrification between both Piccadilly and Victoria to Stalybridge is planned and funded, gantries are already going up. Piccadilly to Wigan is now electrified and the rest of the Piccadilly to Liverpool line will be completed this year; the new trains are starting to arrive. As I said, it is NOT either/or. HS2’s 'funny forks beyond Birmingham' are nothing compared to North Starts question mark shaped route to Manchester. Altfish
  • Score: 1

12:57pm Mon 31 Mar 14

NorthStart says...

Thanks for the critique, Altfish

The NorthStart route would compete with the WCML, not close it. So the natural route from Manchester to Birmingham and back would remain: a WCML train from Piccadilly.

For the trip from Manchester to London and back, there would be a second main line: the 165mph Plan B route via Sheffield and East Midlands Airport to St Pancras. It would be the natural choice of those Piccadilly (and Salford etc) and London area users who curse the interchange penalties of Euston for access to and from the City, Canary Wharf, south London, Gatwick, Essex and Eurostar services. But, for those going to west London, the WCML would have more space on its London-Manchester trains.

However, the NorthStart route to London would come after construction of its fast link from Manchester Victoria to Leeds. The key aim would be to fast-connect the rail networks of East Lancs and West Yorks and bring time-closer together an economic zone half as big again as Birmingham. This is to me (and, it seems, to the Evan Davis researchers) to be the North's best means of becoming big enough and well-connect enough to compete with (and remain independent of) London's world city to the south. Otherwise, the North South Divide looks set to remain, sustained by HS2's forks.

Birmingham has much greater risks from that huge economy than Manchester or Leeds, which is why the Plan B route follows the M1 and M6 corridors to reach it: more capacity from St Pancras to compete with the WCML from Euston, but (unlike HS2) deliberately not drawing central Brum and its airport time-nearer to central London and its competitor businesses.
Thanks for the critique, Altfish The NorthStart route would compete with the WCML, not close it. So the natural route from Manchester to Birmingham and back would remain: a WCML train from Piccadilly. For the trip from Manchester to London and back, there would be a second main line: the 165mph Plan B route via Sheffield and East Midlands Airport to St Pancras. It would be the natural choice of those Piccadilly (and Salford etc) and London area users who curse the interchange penalties of Euston for access to and from the City, Canary Wharf, south London, Gatwick, Essex and Eurostar services. But, for those going to west London, the WCML would have more space on its London-Manchester trains. However, the NorthStart route to London would come after construction of its fast link from Manchester Victoria to Leeds. The key aim would be to fast-connect the rail networks of East Lancs and West Yorks and bring time-closer together an economic zone half as big again as Birmingham. This is to me (and, it seems, to the Evan Davis researchers) to be the North's best means of becoming big enough and well-connect enough to compete with (and remain independent of) London's world city to the south. Otherwise, the North South Divide looks set to remain, sustained by HS2's forks. Birmingham has much greater risks from that huge economy than Manchester or Leeds, which is why the Plan B route follows the M1 and M6 corridors to reach it: more capacity from St Pancras to compete with the WCML from Euston, but (unlike HS2) deliberately not drawing central Brum and its airport time-nearer to central London and its competitor businesses. NorthStart
  • Score: -1

7:50pm Mon 31 Mar 14

Altfish says...

I do appreciate that the WCML will not be dug up; the same applies with HS2, the difference being that HS2 reduces the Manchester to Birmingham service to about 40-minutes, what does NorthStart do? It leaves it the same, i.e. about 90-minutes.
You have ignored all my comments about the Northern Hub, electrification in the north west (including Victoria) that are already starting to address most of your demands for East-West improvements. You have ignored my concerns of mixed usage main lines; i.e. Express trains mixing with stopping trains and freight trains.
The 165mph Plan B route via Sheffield and East Midlands Airport to St Pancras??? Is this a new line or are you using the existing Midland Mainline? There is nothing natural about the choice of this line, there is a slow existing route that takes an hour to get to Sheffield. Are you seriously suggesting two new routes across the Pennines, I can’t wait for the Greens and NIMBYs to get hold of these proposals.
I find Euston a very convenient arrival point in London; it is on both branches of the Northern Line, on the Victoria Line and a short walk from the Circle, Metropolitan and Hammersmith & City lines. I assume the recently refurbished and extended St Pancras will have to be rebuilt once again to accommodate these extra trains, because St Pancras and the south end of the Midland Mainline are also full.
You talk about a fast link from Victoria to Leeds but give little detail; is it a new line or an upgrade of existing? Will you please explain your hatred of ‘HS2’s forks’, why are Birmingham connections bad? What about connectivity for North Wales, Liverpool, Cheshire, Preston, etc. I assume they have to use the existing WCML.
Once again there are many pie in the sky proposals but with absolutely NO COSTS GIVEN. Until I see fully costed proposals I cannot take them seriously
I do appreciate that the WCML will not be dug up; the same applies with HS2, the difference being that HS2 reduces the Manchester to Birmingham service to about 40-minutes, what does NorthStart do? It leaves it the same, i.e. about 90-minutes. You have ignored all my comments about the Northern Hub, electrification in the north west (including Victoria) that are already starting to address most of your demands for East-West improvements. You have ignored my concerns of mixed usage main lines; i.e. Express trains mixing with stopping trains and freight trains. The 165mph Plan B route via Sheffield and East Midlands Airport to St Pancras??? Is this a new line or are you using the existing Midland Mainline? There is nothing natural about the choice of this line, there is a slow existing route that takes an hour to get to Sheffield. Are you seriously suggesting two new routes across the Pennines, I can’t wait for the Greens and NIMBYs to get hold of these proposals. I find Euston a very convenient arrival point in London; it is on both branches of the Northern Line, on the Victoria Line and a short walk from the Circle, Metropolitan and Hammersmith & City lines. I assume the recently refurbished and extended St Pancras will have to be rebuilt once again to accommodate these extra trains, because St Pancras and the south end of the Midland Mainline are also full. You talk about a fast link from Victoria to Leeds but give little detail; is it a new line or an upgrade of existing? Will you please explain your hatred of ‘HS2’s forks’, why are Birmingham connections bad? What about connectivity for North Wales, Liverpool, Cheshire, Preston, etc. I assume they have to use the existing WCML. Once again there are many pie in the sky proposals but with absolutely NO COSTS GIVEN. Until I see fully costed proposals I cannot take them seriously Altfish
  • Score: 1

6:27pm Wed 2 Apr 14

NorthStart says...

@ Altfish

No need for 'fully costed proposals'. They and the optioneering effort beforehand would need Whitehall funding. Instead, just have a look at the HS2 map. Spot which city and which parts of it HS2 will end up serving best.
@ Altfish No need for 'fully costed proposals'. They and the optioneering effort beforehand would need Whitehall funding. Instead, just have a look at the HS2 map. Spot which city and which parts of it HS2 will end up serving best. NorthStart
  • Score: 0

9:34pm Wed 2 Apr 14

Altfish says...

I can't believe you said that!! Of course there is a need for a fully costed proposal, how else can any cost-benefit analysis be done?

Once again you have failed to address any of my points, I'm sorry North Start but you are sounding like a stuck record.
I can't believe you said that!! Of course there is a need for a fully costed proposal, how else can any cost-benefit analysis be done? Once again you have failed to address any of my points, I'm sorry North Start but you are sounding like a stuck record. Altfish
  • Score: 0

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